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welcome to Telos on the rabbit hole my

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guest today is Steven Hassan a mental

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health professional and a leading expert

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on cults and mind-control who has been

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helping people out of the rabbit hole

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since 1976 when he left the unification

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Church of sun-young moon popularly known

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as the Moonies he now teaches at Harvard

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Medical School and is the author of four

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books on cults and related topics and

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has helped countless people escape the

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influence of cults so our Steve thank

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you very much for being here

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yeah Thank You Mick and I really enjoyed

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reading your book plug as someone who's

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been dealing with cult groups that are

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formed around conspiracy theories like

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the Moonies the one I was in or

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Scientology just to name two was really

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refreshing to hear someone from a

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completely different angle come up with

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similar realizations about what works

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and what doesn't work and I really liked

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your your idea of a scale of different

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extreme conspiracy theories and getting

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people to kind of identify which ones

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they don't like you know or they don't

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believe in and such and to to use that

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as a kind of stepping stone and it was a

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number of other things that I really

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appreciated about what you're advocating

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oh thank you very much and I think I

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think part of that is kind of because

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your book was an inspiration for my book

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your first book coming home but in coal

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mine control was a book that quick plug

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and it and of course I have your your

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latest book here which we'll talk about

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later but combating caught my control

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when I started out writing my first book

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in the book escaping the rabbit hole

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when you do a book proposal obviously

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you have to do comparable books and say

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what's the market like is there room in

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the market for this type of book and I

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thought you know what books are there

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out there that are like that and I

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thought you know the there aren't really

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books that address conspiracy theories

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per se but there certainly are books the

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address cults so I looked up to see

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what's one of the best books on cults

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and addressing that issue and of course

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your book was the one that kind of

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bubbled to the top almost immediately as

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being you know they're both a classic

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and you know an extremely a valuable

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book in that regard and he seemed very

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similar to what I was thinking of

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writing and at the time I hadn't read it

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and I actually wrote my book before I

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ended up reading your book and I dipped

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into it here and there but I I didn't

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actually read it so but you know can't

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want to start off with just a kind of a

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as a way of getting into it

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kind of like the definition of what a

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cult is and yeah I looked up in

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Wikipedia and it says it has this very

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banal definition which is a social group

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with unusual religious spiritual or

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philosophical beliefs or interests and

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goals but then we in popular culture

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when you talk about cults you you're

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talking about much more extreme things

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like mind control and like these where

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everybody is living together in terrible

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conditions and things like that so and I

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noticed you use the term destructive

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cults sometimes rather than just cold

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sack yeah yeah I use the term false

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conspiracy theories to distinguish it

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from the more banal conspiracy theories

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so do you have problems with language

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like that and how do you define a cult

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and how do you use the terminology of

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what a cult is in your work yeah it's a

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it's a good question and over forty four

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years and I just really want to

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emphasize because in your book you tell

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stories of people who've escaped the

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rabbit hole and now they've gone on to

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help other people to understand it

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that's my story right a nutshell because

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I was a student at Queens College and

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and had no desire to join a group of any

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kind so I was really interested in

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learning and growing making the world a

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better place but mostly I was interested

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in girls and women who were recruiting

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me were flirting with me and that was

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the initial hook but to answer your

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question

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Nik my view at this point is to think

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about a continuum of influence from

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ethical to unethical and I think the

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word cult can be applied to benign or

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even productive groups where there are

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very obsessive fans yeah but people have

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informed consent they know what they're

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involved with they have all ability to

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question the leader the doctrine in the

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group they can talk to whoever they want

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to talk to read whatever they want to

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read and they're free to leave without

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coercion or without phobias in their

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head that terrible things are gonna

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happen to them and so for me the word

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cult in and of itself is not a bad thing

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like a cult classic film etc I was

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actually interviewed for a book called

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The Cult of Mac that came out and I

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laughed when the the writer wanted to

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interview me and I said I got our first

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disclose that I've only used Apple since

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1982 and I currently have several

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iPhones and iPads etc so I'm in the book

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The Cult of Mac is that adherent yes

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obviously you know so so let's not get

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hung up in the word cult as an immediate

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negative but authoritarian cults or

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destructive cults where people are being

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lied to

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they're being manipulated through guilt

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sphere their information is controlled

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the whole bite model my behavior control

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information control thought control and

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emotional control all designed to make

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someone dependence and obedience alright

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so thank you can't question individually

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you're not encouraged to act on your

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conscience you're not able to challenge

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the leadership you know or the ideology

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or the policy otherwise you're gonna get

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a lot of social pressure on you that

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you're a bad person

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which I'm witnessing with people who had

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been Magda heavy Magga supporters who

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have left who are just being bombarded

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by true believers just like

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people who leave Scientology get

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bombarded and they're dishonest and you

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you refer to it the term shell like

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you're a shell you're a bet you know the

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personal attack on a person who raises

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questions and such well you must have a

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different a bad motive oh you must be a

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bad person and such and like yourself

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I've just been as transparent as

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possible telling my story you know

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revealing my my my owner abilities and

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flaws and that I'm open to learning as

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you say in your book hey if I'm mistaken

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teach me

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you know if Scientology if if if the

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world's problems are really because of a

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galactic dictator named Xenu seventy

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five billion years ago you know please

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show me yeah yeah it's this interesting

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that the people have this this this new

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perception of you or be as chills and

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but I also before the people reach that

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idea about me you often get this kind of

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like a reversal of perceptions I have

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the people who are on I say the other

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side of the fence that people who are

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conspiracy theorists or maybe the people

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who are in cults they view me as being a

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victim of propaganda so they think that

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only I am I'm under brain control

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Satan's agents right yes and it but

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that's the whole black and white all or

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nothing good versus evil indoctrination

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and again anyone who's a critic or an

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ex-member in the mind of a cult member

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is horrible

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yeah but at the moment they start

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realizing holy mackerel I like this guy

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he seems genuine what he says makes

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sense then they kind of have to sneak

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you know to look at my website freedom

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of mind calm or sneak to a bookstore and

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and get combating and read it and yeah

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combating has really helped a lot of

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people exit destructive cults because

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I'm just telling stories my

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story my deprogramming learning about

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chinese communist brainwashing you know

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and my journey and the people that I've

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helped so by the time people are done

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with it they're like he was writing the

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book about my group when in fact I

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didn't even know what group they were in

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and never heard of it

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right if they can't read it and go wow

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this is so stereotypically appropriate

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and so people can relate so did you have

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that perception yourself when when you

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were in a cult

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you thought that people outside the

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cults were were in you know under some

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kind of thrall of the media or something

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like that or or say to me Communists and

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Satan yeah that my indoctrination I

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didn't believe in Satan before the cult

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was raised go Jewish I didn't even have

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a concept of evil spirits but in the

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cult I was brought to see the Exorcist

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movie that and then moon gave a lecture

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to the members and said God made this

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movie and it's a prophecy of what will

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happen to you if you leave the

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unification Church and it was that

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evening that a really bad phobia was

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installed in my head where I wouldn't

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allow any doubts into my consciousness

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so people might you know meet me on the

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street while I'm recruiting them and

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bring up something and I was just

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trained to do thoughts stopping and look

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at them as you know agents of the devil

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trying to you know seduce me away from

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my mission to save the earth so when you

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came out of that when you you know you

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essentially deprogrammed and you came

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out of the cult was there a period where

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you kind of had almost like the two

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perspectives simultaneously or did you

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it's gonna instantly flip from one to

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the other or as a period of confusion in

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between good question so I'm a mental

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health professional I got my masters in

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counseling psychology in 1985 and I've

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been teaching the fourth year psychiatry

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residents at Harvard Medical School and

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elsewhere and I want to say that the

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closest disc

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option as a mental health professional

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of brainwashing or mind-control is a

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dissociative disorder hmm

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in fact the dsm-5 the diagnostic

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Statistical Manual of the APA as a

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designation 300 point one five and it

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explicitly says brainwashing coercive

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persuasion thought reform so what I'm

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trying to say to you is that the the

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whole notion is that there was the real

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Steve Hassim from Flushing Queens New

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York by the way I grew up a mile from

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Donald Trump

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the real steve hasson and the cult steve

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hasson whose true parents were moon and

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his wife and and that cult identity

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suppressed my real identity but at the

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point that uh that I had my insight in

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my deprogramming which followed a

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near-fatal van crash in two weeks in the

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hospital away from the group what

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happened was a thought bubbled up that

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moon was not trustworthy he was a liar

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and as soon as that happened I had an

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experience like a flip hmm of and and I

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00:12:26,009 --> 00:12:22,809
described it in my book like being in a

274
00:12:28,650 --> 00:12:26,019
dark room someone opens the the blinds

275
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and the son comes in and I also

276
00:12:33,090 --> 00:12:31,180
described it as like being on the top of

277
00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:33,100
a skyscraper where you're at the top of

278
00:12:37,350 --> 00:12:35,290
the world and you're falling off of it

279
00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:37,360
and you have no idea where you're

280
00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:41,529
falling to but I definitely had this

281
00:12:46,889 --> 00:12:44,649
back and forth back and forth what if

282
00:12:49,019 --> 00:12:46,899
it's true what if it isn't true what if

283
00:12:52,019 --> 00:12:49,029
it's Satan what if the the programmers

284
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:52,029
have brainwashed me and it was really my

285
00:13:01,499 --> 00:12:55,569
intellect and my conscience and my core

286
00:13:05,819 --> 00:13:01,509
values and a commitment to wanting to

287
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:05,829
know what was real and as I was a leader

288
00:13:11,460 --> 00:13:08,079
in the group and I have a graphic that's

289
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:11,470
in my website because I was up here I

290
00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:14,410
had a lot of experiences with moon and

291
00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:16,990
other people that most members never

292
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:18,050
have

293
00:13:24,379 --> 00:13:20,930
and it was really going into my

294
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:24,389
experiences memory chamber as I was

295
00:13:30,319 --> 00:13:27,540
reading about brainwashing and and other

296
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:30,329
cults that it would surface oh that

297
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,600
happened to and it began a journey of

298
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:35,760
trying to piece it together which took

299
00:13:40,759 --> 00:13:38,610
you know honestly years yeah you know

300
00:13:42,199 --> 00:13:40,769
here kind of similar things with people

301
00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:42,209
coming out of conspiracy theories and

302
00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:44,910
there's a lot of parallels here with

303
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:46,500
conspiracy theories and some people

304
00:13:53,079 --> 00:13:49,560
describe conspiracy theories of various

305
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:53,089
various types as being being cult-like

306
00:14:01,280 --> 00:13:56,490
but I actually think of it as an

307
00:14:05,689 --> 00:14:01,290
ideological cult not necessarily what is

308
00:14:10,490 --> 00:14:05,699
venerating as a guru or a messiah and I

309
00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:10,500
have a very um because I was in the moon

310
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:13,230
cult which turned out that in my

311
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:17,279
research I found out I was an expert for

312
00:14:21,410 --> 00:14:18,800
a Congressional subcommittee

313
00:14:25,550 --> 00:14:21,420
investigation into Korean CIA activities

314
00:14:28,670 --> 00:14:25,560
in the US and I wound up reading 11

315
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:28,680
volumes of it after Jonestown happens

316
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:33,180
and I realized that actually the CIA set

317
00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:35,850
up the Korean CIA and the founder of the

318
00:14:40,970 --> 00:14:38,519
Korean CIA said that he quote organized

319
00:14:45,139 --> 00:14:40,980
and utilized the unification Church for

320
00:14:48,379 --> 00:14:45,149
use as a political tool that I started

321
00:14:51,460 --> 00:14:48,389
to realize ah ha the Communists know

322
00:14:57,590 --> 00:14:51,470
about brainwashing but so does the CIA

323
00:15:01,759 --> 00:14:57,600
uh-huh and and so in my journey I I'm

324
00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:01,769
really waded in the Universal

325
00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:04,980
Declaration of Human Rights as opposed

326
00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:07,889
to any government or any alignment to an

327
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:12,990
ideology and and I was you know the

328
00:15:17,569 --> 00:15:14,730
Moonies were brought to the u.s. they

329
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:17,579
were they created they bought the

330
00:15:23,059 --> 00:15:20,130
Washington Times newspaper which they

331
00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:23,069
operated at a loss of over two billion

332
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:26,660
dollars for over 25 years

333
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:30,390
you know who's giving that money and for

334
00:15:34,639 --> 00:15:31,410
what purpose

335
00:15:36,319 --> 00:15:34,649
so there's a whole political angle to

336
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:36,329
this and in your book you talk about

337
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:40,800
Russia and Russia's goals to do

338
00:15:48,769 --> 00:15:44,370
psyops psychological operations and I

339
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:48,779
think that not only Russia China Isis

340
00:15:58,129 --> 00:15:53,339
maybe Iran maybe other state actors are

341
00:16:02,420 --> 00:15:58,139
using groups online and in person to

342
00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:02,430
advance their agendas and so there's a

343
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:06,480
whole there's a deeper picture here as I

344
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:10,170
see it and and all I can do I'm 65 years

345
00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:14,610
old is say hey everybody the mind can be

346
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:18,420
tricked we can be made to believe bad

347
00:16:23,389 --> 00:16:20,970
things and we can be turned against our

348
00:16:26,179 --> 00:16:23,399
own conscience our own values our own

349
00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:26,189
families and friends against our own

350
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:30,540
country a constitution and let's be

351
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:32,970
humble at which I love in your book as

352
00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:36,060
well like hey if I'm wrong let's look at

353
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:38,550
the information lets us it out because

354
00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:41,130
if something's legitimate it will stand

355
00:16:46,429 --> 00:16:43,500
up to scrutiny and if it's not why would

356
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:46,439
we in you know put our good name to it

357
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:50,160
and that's time energy money yeah yeah

358
00:16:54,980 --> 00:16:52,110
it's an interesting yeah

359
00:16:57,019 --> 00:16:54,990
like when you describe that you kind of

360
00:16:59,329 --> 00:16:57,029
describing like a big overarching

361
00:17:02,650 --> 00:16:59,339
conspiracy theory in a way that's you

362
00:17:05,449 --> 00:17:02,660
know there are shadowy areas there are

363
00:17:10,579 --> 00:17:05,459
conspiracies but you need to have facts

364
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:10,589
and X insiders who can pull back the

365
00:17:16,130 --> 00:17:13,439
curtain and explain and give documents

366
00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:16,140
like when I left the Moonies I brought

367
00:17:20,779 --> 00:17:18,510
out all these internal documents of

368
00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:20,789
speeches of moon where he said democracy

369
00:17:25,939 --> 00:17:24,150
was satanic you know we're gonna we're

370
00:17:28,309 --> 00:17:25,949
gonna put people in congressmen and

371
00:17:31,779 --> 00:17:28,319
Senators offices to infiltrate the

372
00:17:34,430 --> 00:17:31,789
government you know just really hardcore

373
00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:34,440
obvious things about wanting to take

374
00:17:40,370 --> 00:17:38,070
over the world and that's what I was

375
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:40,380
groomed that God wanted me to be a world

376
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:43,530
leader in this idyllic you know Kingdom

377
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:44,640
of Heaven that we were

378
00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:48,690
build on earth and when I was

379
00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:51,030
deprogrammed I was like wait a minute I

380
00:17:56,030 --> 00:17:52,830
knew about the Holocaust

381
00:17:58,910 --> 00:17:56,040
I read 1984 how did I become a

382
00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:58,920
right-wing fascist who was ready to kill

383
00:18:03,770 --> 00:18:01,020
people if they didn't believe what the

384
00:18:06,170 --> 00:18:03,780
group said yeah hell yeah it's like

385
00:18:07,940 --> 00:18:06,180
people in conspiracy theories they think

386
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:07,950
I would never fall for a conspiracy

387
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:09,330
theory you know people say I would never

388
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:11,100
fall for a cult no one actually thinks

389
00:18:15,140 --> 00:18:13,290
that they're doing it and they don't see

390
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:15,150
it happening while it's happening either

391
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:16,320
because it's kind of this with this

392
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:19,080
gradual process is kind of another of

393
00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:21,600
the parallels yeah for some people it's

394
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:24,780
very incremental and gradual but I'm

395
00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:27,930
seeing more and more online make use of

396
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:31,350
no notic techniques specifically through

397
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:36,090
YouTube videos etc to sidestep people's

398
00:18:42,170 --> 00:18:39,360
analytic minds and to put ideas directly

399
00:18:44,690 --> 00:18:42,180
into people's unconscious that they're

400
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:44,700
not even necessarily aware are going

401
00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:47,970
into their heads and and that's another

402
00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:52,470
part of the whole mind control arsenal

403
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:54,990
and I should say hypnosis can be used

404
00:19:00,530 --> 00:18:57,600
therapeutically ethically they help

405
00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:00,540
people make life changes that are

406
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:03,980
fabulous but I would only trust them a

407
00:19:09,140 --> 00:19:06,450
licensed mental health professional

408
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:09,150
who's had a lot of clinical training

409
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:13,050
with a with a board that holds them try

410
00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:14,960
stalled and accountable for the ethics

411
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:18,240
versus all these people online I will

412
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:20,880
teach you how to do hypnosis you know I

413
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:23,690
have a certification from some nonsense

414
00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:27,210
organization that has no bearing no

415
00:19:31,850 --> 00:19:29,820
weight whatsoever and it's a very

416
00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:31,860
troubling yeah it's interesting the idea

417
00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:33,360
of hypnosis so one of the things you

418
00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:35,940
talk about in you in your books is a

419
00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:37,980
technique that is used within cults

420
00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:41,340
called thought stopping where they will

421
00:19:47,540 --> 00:19:45,270
do something like like chanting or maybe

422
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:47,550
reciting various things as a way of

423
00:19:52,850 --> 00:19:50,850
blocking out thoughts from outside and

424
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:52,860
I've seen that stopping is actually

425
00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:55,530
Mecca a behavior modification technique

426
00:20:02,009 --> 00:19:57,830
it's not a hypnotic Jen right

427
00:20:04,899 --> 00:20:02,019
but close your eyes and imagine yourself

428
00:20:07,419 --> 00:20:04,909
you know in the blah blah blah blah blah

429
00:20:10,419 --> 00:20:07,429
blah blah and I won't do the voice and

430
00:20:13,810 --> 00:20:10,429
do the specific linguistic instructions

431
00:20:16,779 --> 00:20:13,820
but a lot of what's being promoted as

432
00:20:22,389 --> 00:20:16,789
meditation is not meditation it's it

433
00:20:25,479 --> 00:20:22,399
notic induction and you know the whole

434
00:20:28,659 --> 00:20:25,489
basis of my my company freedom of mind

435
00:20:32,049 --> 00:20:28,669
is its your mind you should control it

436
00:20:34,269 --> 00:20:32,059
not somebody else and in order to

437
00:20:37,930 --> 00:20:34,279
control your mind you need you need to

438
00:20:40,659 --> 00:20:37,940
know intellectually and and consciously

439
00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:40,669
well who are these people what are their

440
00:20:44,919 --> 00:20:42,289
credentials what do they actually

441
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:44,929
believe and what's going to happen to me

442
00:20:50,019 --> 00:20:47,679
if I get involved with this and what's

443
00:20:52,450 --> 00:20:50,029
notoriously stereotypical with

444
00:20:56,590 --> 00:20:52,460
destructive mind controllers is they're

445
00:20:59,680 --> 00:20:56,600
liars they lie by withholding vital

446
00:21:02,259 --> 00:20:59,690
information they lie by the distorting

447
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:02,269
information or they'll be blatantly

448
00:21:08,409 --> 00:21:05,330
lying oh I never said that when in fact

449
00:21:10,779 --> 00:21:08,419
of a tape good that's and you heard the

450
00:21:12,999 --> 00:21:10,789
person you know three hours earlier say

451
00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:13,009
the exact same thing and now they're

452
00:21:19,810 --> 00:21:15,470
denying it and and people will say oh

453
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:19,820
that's gaslighting yep but but if it's

454
00:21:26,229 --> 00:21:22,970
done very systematically to break you

455
00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:26,239
down to disorient you to confuse you and

456
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:29,840
then to program you into this new belief

457
00:21:34,269 --> 00:21:32,090
system this new identity

458
00:21:37,389 --> 00:21:34,279
that's what I'm talking about with the

459
00:21:39,070 --> 00:21:37,399
strong complaint control cults yeah you

460
00:21:40,330 --> 00:21:39,080
know again you have this this issue of

461
00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:40,340
this kind of symmetry or that this

462
00:21:43,659 --> 00:21:41,960
asymmetry of perception where that

463
00:21:45,580 --> 00:21:43,669
they're looking from their side and they

464
00:21:47,859 --> 00:21:45,590
see the same thing on you and they will

465
00:21:50,049 --> 00:21:47,869
say like oh well Steve here you're very

466
00:21:53,259 --> 00:21:50,059
glib and you you you're very persuasive

467
00:21:55,239 --> 00:21:53,269
and I can feel myself being taken in by

468
00:21:56,859 --> 00:21:55,249
my arguments but how do I know that

469
00:22:01,060 --> 00:21:56,869
you're not using some kind of mind

470
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:01,070
control on me I hear that from almost

471
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:05,330
all my clients and I basically never do

472
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:08,090
hypnosis on people deliberately even

473
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:10,770
though I am highly trained

474
00:22:14,690 --> 00:22:13,050
and I basically say my work is

475
00:22:17,090 --> 00:22:14,700
empowering people to think for

476
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:17,100
themselves make their own decisions and

477
00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:21,809
not to make you my slave or my obedient

478
00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:25,230
person and if and I'm not perfect

479
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,270
and I make mistakes and if you ever hear

480
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:29,760
something you don't agree with call me

481
00:22:35,030 --> 00:22:32,400
on it or ask me about it and if it's a

482
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:35,040
mistake I'm gonna write it and I'm gonna

483
00:22:41,810 --> 00:22:39,510
apologize but you know so you were

484
00:22:44,299 --> 00:22:41,820
talking about both sides you know the

485
00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:44,309
conspiracy theorist or the cult member

486
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:46,500
and the person who's trying to debunk it

487
00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:48,480
or trying to level one trying to help

488
00:22:54,860 --> 00:22:52,020
someone and a cult but I what I didn't

489
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:54,870
hear explicitly in your book was the

490
00:23:02,210 --> 00:22:57,290
need to get to that third perspective

491
00:23:05,570 --> 00:23:02,220
the look outside you know to be able to

492
00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:05,580
go well here's the the pros of this

493
00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:07,800
here's the pros of that here's the cons

494
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:10,920
of this here's the cons of that and this

495
00:23:16,370 --> 00:23:13,500
notion of switching perspectives is a

496
00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:16,380
very key concept for me of helping

497
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:20,220
people to start reality testing and a

498
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:22,410
simple one that I wrote about in my book

499
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:25,110
freedom of mind is just you know now

500
00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:26,640
that you've been in this group for 10

501
00:23:33,169 --> 00:23:30,630
years if you go back in time to when you

502
00:23:35,870 --> 00:23:33,179
were first introduced what did you think

503
00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:35,880
you were getting involved with and

504
00:23:42,049 --> 00:23:38,760
really encourage the person to reiax s

505
00:23:46,669 --> 00:23:42,059
their identity before they jump down the

506
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:46,679
rabbit hole and if you knew then what

507
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:49,590
you know now do you think you ever would

508
00:23:55,340 --> 00:23:51,840
have you know pressed that next button

509
00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:55,350
or gone to that free dinner or whatever

510
00:24:02,990 --> 00:23:59,010
and those are very important reality

511
00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:03,000
testing techniques that I urge my

512
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:05,460
clients who come to me for advice on how

513
00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:07,710
to help a loved one I do intensive

514
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:11,190
coaching in a customized way to help a

515
00:24:17,390 --> 00:24:13,830
specific you know person to start

516
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,400
thinking and it has to be custom yeah

517
00:24:21,530 --> 00:24:19,679
and you have this this concept that runs

518
00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:21,540
through your books of the the authentic

519
00:24:25,940 --> 00:24:23,430
self that a person

520
00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:25,950
like you know or authentic being within

521
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:30,030
them that is being suppressed by by

522
00:24:34,970 --> 00:24:32,250
these mind-control techniques or this

523
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:34,980
disinformation or whatever and that if

524
00:24:39,710 --> 00:24:37,440
they escape they will return back to

525
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:39,720
their authentic self now is it really

526
00:24:44,030 --> 00:24:41,850
the same as returning back to their what

527
00:24:46,820 --> 00:24:44,040
they were before or is it like a new

528
00:24:50,420 --> 00:24:46,830
authentic self now it's a good question

529
00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:50,430
and it's it's a model okay and it's a

530
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:53,640
model based on my own self-reflection my

531
00:24:59,900 --> 00:24:56,610
own experience as well as working with

532
00:25:07,610 --> 00:24:59,910
thousands of people over 40 years it's

533
00:25:12,170 --> 00:25:07,620
more from me a sense of essence to you

534
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:12,180
try to find a word who who's the who is

535
00:25:19,610 --> 00:25:15,510
the true Mick you know the the genetic

536
00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:19,620
Mick who you know is creative and caring

537
00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:22,470
and you know idealistic and wanting to

538
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:25,830
help other people etc then it is a

539
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:29,850
notion of a static you know fully formed

540
00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:32,490
self because we know when we're born you

541
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:36,660
know our brains are not formed and we

542
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:39,840
have genetic coding that will will

543
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:42,450
emerge but there are developmental steps

544
00:25:48,290 --> 00:25:46,170
and stages and and even talking about my

545
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:48,300
influence continuum that I mentioned

546
00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:51,410
before one could look at healthy

547
00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:54,390
developmental things in a family or

548
00:25:59,810 --> 00:25:57,480
unhealthy where the healthy is the

549
00:26:02,150 --> 00:25:59,820
parents realized that child is unique

550
00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:02,160
and their job is to help them to grow up

551
00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:05,070
to be their own unique self and to

552
00:26:10,510 --> 00:26:07,500
become individuated so they can function

553
00:26:13,820 --> 00:26:10,520
but themselves whereas the authoritarian

554
00:26:16,430 --> 00:26:13,830
family system is wanting to make them

555
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:16,440
dependent and obedient too often using

556
00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:18,930
corporal punishment when the child is

557
00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:22,500
young and and and and wanting the child

558
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:24,990
to do what the parents want them to do

559
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:28,740
or else and for me that's not healthy

560
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:33,090
development in an evolution yeah yeah

561
00:26:36,570 --> 00:26:34,650
the whole thing idea of influence and

562
00:26:39,630 --> 00:26:36,580
undo influences

563
00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:39,640
obviously like a big big thing now when

564
00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:41,769
you say undue influence there's

565
00:26:45,299 --> 00:26:43,809
obviously people in in your life that

566
00:26:46,889 --> 00:26:45,309
will have a lot of influence over you

567
00:26:48,659 --> 00:26:46,899
like your teachers and your parents and

568
00:26:50,279 --> 00:26:48,669
you know later on if you meet someone

569
00:26:52,860 --> 00:26:50,289
who becomes kind of a mentor to you in

570
00:26:54,269 --> 00:26:52,870
some way or just like you know a really

571
00:26:57,570 --> 00:26:54,279
good friend do you have conversations

572
00:27:00,419 --> 00:26:57,580
with how can you tell when it's when

573
00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:00,429
it's kind of a negative influence is it

574
00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:02,049
undo if it's just a very strong

575
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:03,820
influence like if you have a really good

576
00:27:08,299 --> 00:27:04,690
teacher

577
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:08,309
so what I find change especially really

578
00:27:14,669 --> 00:27:12,130
powerful teachers and really powerful

579
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:14,679
teachers if you would disagree with them

580
00:27:22,919 --> 00:27:19,360
they'll say tell me why and if and if

581
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:22,929
they're they're not persuasive why their

582
00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:24,730
point of view is better they're not

583
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:26,470
gonna make you feel guilty or bad or

584
00:27:33,269 --> 00:27:30,850
reject you as a as a mentee whereas in a

585
00:27:37,259 --> 00:27:33,279
mind controlling relationship it really

586
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:37,269
comes down to you know in a sense and

587
00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:41,279
here is another piece of the the pie of

588
00:27:46,919 --> 00:27:44,169
destructive off their authoritarian cult

589
00:27:50,159 --> 00:27:46,929
group is the leader is typically a

590
00:27:53,250 --> 00:27:50,169
narcissist or in some cases a malignant

591
00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:53,260
narcissist which includes the feeling of

592
00:27:59,639 --> 00:27:56,230
being above the law and the pathological

593
00:28:01,769 --> 00:27:59,649
lying and the manipulation and and and

594
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:01,779
revenge factor and other things like

595
00:28:05,610 --> 00:28:02,260
that

596
00:28:09,509 --> 00:28:05,620
and if a mentor is a malignant

597
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:09,519
narcissist I would never ask them to be

598
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:12,250
my mentor and you know getting out of

599
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:14,970
the Moonies I got antennae that would go

600
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:18,190
as soon as a malignant narcissist would

601
00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:22,240
even enter my sphere so it's really

602
00:28:27,090 --> 00:28:25,809
about I've had some amazing teachers who

603
00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:27,100
are just brilliant

604
00:28:32,210 --> 00:28:30,190
to teach me psychology to teach me

605
00:28:37,860 --> 00:28:32,220
hypnosis to teach me about brainwashing

606
00:28:40,710 --> 00:28:37,870
like Robert liftin to name one Philip

607
00:28:46,019 --> 00:28:40,720
Zimbardo of Stanford is another mentor

608
00:28:48,539 --> 00:28:46,029
that I feel great gratitude for you know

609
00:28:49,660 --> 00:28:48,549
supporting me as a next Mooney before I

610
00:28:52,690 --> 00:28:49,670
became a mental

611
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:52,700
professional a lot of people operate

612
00:28:58,090 --> 00:28:54,770
from what's known as the fundamental

613
00:28:59,950 --> 00:28:58,100
attribution error in social psychology

614
00:29:03,220 --> 00:28:59,960
have you heard that concept or for Nick

615
00:29:05,470 --> 00:29:03,230
I have but I couldn't define it for you

616
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:05,480
so the fun it's it's considered the

617
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:07,370
single most important principle of

618
00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:09,890
social psychology and it basically says

619
00:29:15,010 --> 00:29:12,860
that people have a bias around the world

620
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:15,020
they have a bias when they're trying to

621
00:29:21,070 --> 00:29:18,050
understand a person's behavior they tend

622
00:29:24,730 --> 00:29:21,080
to overestimate internal variables and

623
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:24,740
underestimate social influence variables

624
00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:27,380
so why did Steve get in the Moonies he

625
00:29:32,590 --> 00:29:30,680
was weak he was stupid he he was looking

626
00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:32,600
for a father figure he didn't have a

627
00:29:38,410 --> 00:29:35,720
good religious upbringing versus Steven

628
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:38,420
wasn't educated about cults his

629
00:29:43,150 --> 00:29:40,250
girlfriend dumped him three women

630
00:29:45,310 --> 00:29:43,160
flirted with them and lied and and and

631
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:45,320
put him through a systematic social

632
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:49,070
influencer process that subverted his

633
00:29:55,870 --> 00:29:53,120
ability to think for himself the good

634
00:29:58,420 --> 00:29:55,880
news is that people don't like to be

635
00:30:01,960 --> 00:29:58,430
lied to they don't like to be abused and

636
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:01,970
exploited and so over time especially if

637
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:04,010
they're spending a lot of effort in a

638
00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:06,650
destructive cult they burn out or they

639
00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:09,460
develop you know physical ailments

640
00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:12,560
psychosomatically orient that's in some

641
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:14,990
cases even to just get the heck out of

642
00:30:21,790 --> 00:30:18,410
there I fell asleep at the wheel of a of

643
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:21,800
a moonie van dude asleep exhaustion so

644
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:28,310
that led to my my exit but you know I'm

645
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:31,610
I all I know is that we're on one planet

646
00:30:37,390 --> 00:30:33,890
together and we have to it's a matter of

647
00:30:40,990 --> 00:30:37,400
survival to realize especially with this

648
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:41,000
pandemic that our fate is tied to other

649
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:44,930
people and if we know there are powerful

650
00:30:58,050 --> 00:30:48,530
forces wanting to create distrust to sow

651
00:31:03,139 --> 00:31:01,540
trudeau and and one of the things that's

652
00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:03,149
frustrated me so

653
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:05,460
much when my book the cult of Trump came

654
00:31:12,049 --> 00:31:09,690
out is this this this blaming people who

655
00:31:13,549 --> 00:31:12,059
believed in Trump as they're stupid and

656
00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:13,559
they're weak and they're from bad

657
00:31:18,229 --> 00:31:16,200
families and all of that instead of

658
00:31:21,019 --> 00:31:18,239
understanding they've been influenced

659
00:31:22,789 --> 00:31:21,029
yeah yes talk about your book which I

660
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:22,799
have copy that you sent me right here

661
00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:25,710
it's a very interesting book but in the

662
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:29,580
obvious problem with the book is that it

663
00:31:37,009 --> 00:31:34,320
is it's kind of accusing almost half the

664
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:37,019
country of being in a cult which seems

665
00:31:41,479 --> 00:31:40,320
like a problematic way of addressing it

666
00:31:43,489 --> 00:31:41,489
I mean now I think obviously I agree

667
00:31:44,930 --> 00:31:43,499
with a lot of the stuff in the book and

668
00:31:46,430 --> 00:31:44,940
I'm certainly not the Trump supporter

669
00:31:48,739 --> 00:31:46,440
and I I think that you know a lot of the

670
00:31:50,509 --> 00:31:48,749
stuff you point out is correct and this

671
00:31:52,729 --> 00:31:50,519
is something that you discuss in the

672
00:31:54,979 --> 00:31:52,739
book yourself you say like II doesn't

673
00:31:55,849 --> 00:31:54,989
help to point out to someone that they

674
00:31:58,479 --> 00:31:55,859
are in a cult

675
00:32:01,070 --> 00:31:58,489
exactly yeah you've got this entire book

676
00:32:04,129 --> 00:32:01,080
explaining it is this is not a book for

677
00:32:07,419 --> 00:32:04,139
Trump supporters it is it's for

678
00:32:10,909 --> 00:32:07,429
everybody it really was a matter of

679
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:10,919
conscience for me when I was approached

680
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:13,440
by my agent to do this book by this

681
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:16,950
title and Simon Shuster wanted to

682
00:32:23,479 --> 00:32:20,940
publish this book and as I said earlier

683
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:23,489
in this interview my view of cult is on

684
00:32:30,379 --> 00:32:26,450
a continuum of ethical benign

685
00:32:32,989 --> 00:32:30,389
constructive to destructive and I say

686
00:32:36,879 --> 00:32:32,999
that in the introduction of the book as

687
00:32:39,889 --> 00:32:36,889
well but I it was an opportunity I felt

688
00:32:43,249 --> 00:32:39,899
that as much as I have not been a

689
00:32:45,499 --> 00:32:43,259
political person as a therapist who

690
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:45,509
doesn't want to alienate Republican

691
00:32:52,099 --> 00:32:49,080
clients or or other people a matter of

692
00:32:55,489 --> 00:32:52,109
conscience that's the person who is in

693
00:32:57,070 --> 00:32:55,499
the most powerful office in the most in

694
00:33:00,440 --> 00:32:57,080
the most powerful country in the world

695
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:00,450
that is the profile of a malignant

696
00:33:06,919 --> 00:33:04,559
narcissist and was deliberately using

697
00:33:11,839 --> 00:33:06,929
mind control techniques which I have a

698
00:33:16,009 --> 00:33:11,849
whole chapter on and I just felt like if

699
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:16,019
if if this is what the Simon & Schuster

700
00:33:21,289 --> 00:33:16,559
in

701
00:33:24,139 --> 00:33:21,299
assists as a title should I do it should

702
00:33:27,470 --> 00:33:24,149
I not do it I couldn't come up with a

703
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:27,480
better alternative title in terms of

704
00:33:33,619 --> 00:33:30,210
attempting to try to get to the biggest

705
00:33:35,810 --> 00:33:33,629
audience but what's interesting is since

706
00:33:39,769 --> 00:33:35,820
the book has come out the mainstream

707
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:39,779
media has not had me on at all and so a

708
00:33:46,340 --> 00:33:43,230
lot of podcasts and smaller things but a

709
00:33:48,529 --> 00:33:46,350
lot of people including former members

710
00:33:50,539 --> 00:33:48,539
of the Trump administration are calling

711
00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:50,549
it a cult you know called the

712
00:33:58,369 --> 00:33:53,820
personality etc so the term is being

713
00:34:01,549 --> 00:33:58,379
used you know all the time by everyone

714
00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:01,559
of course the Trump believers you know

715
00:34:08,270 --> 00:34:04,230
write to me and say I'm in the cult of

716
00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:08,280
Soros and I'm a lift hard and I'm been

717
00:34:14,930 --> 00:34:12,089
brainwashed by the liberal media so but

718
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:14,940
I'm like well let's talk you know if you

719
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:17,010
know more about brainwashing than me

720
00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:19,200
please educate me how I've been

721
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,980
brainwashed but that in invokes them

722
00:34:28,339 --> 00:34:24,720
needing to learn more about brainwashing

723
00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:28,349
and and the basis and the models that I

724
00:34:36,530 --> 00:34:32,730
use now it's a relatively new book yeah

725
00:34:42,619 --> 00:34:36,540
have you got feedback from people that

726
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:42,629
it has helped I have not heard from more

727
00:34:49,220 --> 00:34:46,050
than a handful of people who were magus

728
00:34:52,730 --> 00:34:49,230
you know trolls and supporters who said

729
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:52,740
wow your book woke me up I've had more

730
00:34:59,450 --> 00:34:55,649
contact people reading combating because

731
00:35:04,609 --> 00:34:59,460
I don't talk about Trump in it

732
00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:04,619
maybe I in the new introduction 2018 but

733
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:06,270
other than that there's nothing about

734
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:11,280
Trump in it and the mistake that a lot

735
00:35:16,579 --> 00:35:13,770
of family members have made is just

736
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:16,589
buying the cult of Trump and mailing it

737
00:35:20,809 --> 00:35:19,410
to some one hand this is going to only

738
00:35:25,460 --> 00:35:20,819
be incendiary

739
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:25,470
versus hey this book came out I was

740
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:26,240
curious

741
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:29,760
would you consider reading it and talk

742
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:32,790
with me about it that would be a more

743
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:36,090
likely scenario that would get good

744
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:40,650
better results but you as you have said

745
00:35:46,910 --> 00:35:44,609
you know I'll read one of your books you

746
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:46,920
read one of my books but let's agree to

747
00:35:53,150 --> 00:35:51,090
spend the time to talk about you know on

748
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:53,160
the information in each of these books

749
00:35:58,130 --> 00:35:55,920
yeah polite disagreement I think is kind

750
00:36:02,750 --> 00:35:58,140
of a great a great basis for moving

751
00:36:08,930 --> 00:36:02,760
forward you got this Matta B's and not

752
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:08,940
cop Eames and you know what what is will

753
00:36:14,450 --> 00:36:10,800
be you know the truth will out

754
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:14,460
eventually yeah obviously

755
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,160
you realize and you've seen the reaction

756
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:19,920
that diehard Trump supporters would have

757
00:36:23,570 --> 00:36:21,450
to a book like this but they were just

758
00:36:27,020 --> 00:36:23,580
beautiful i q-- say you're part of the

759
00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:27,030
george george soros crowd it's very

760
00:36:35,180 --> 00:36:29,640
difficult to get over that and you know

761
00:36:37,099 --> 00:36:35,190
i think my book is also not something

762
00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:37,109
that i would just say like give to your

763
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:39,000
conspiracy theorist friends to read

764
00:36:44,540 --> 00:36:41,460
because it's a guide for you to help

765
00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:44,550
them not so much for them to help

766
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:46,260
themselves although of course if they're

767
00:36:49,970 --> 00:36:48,450
if they're actually open to that then

768
00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:49,980
you know it's something that would be

769
00:36:55,130 --> 00:36:52,980
usable yep I'm really glad you reached

770
00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:55,140
out to me cuz honestly I had not heard

771
00:36:58,970 --> 00:36:56,040
of you before

772
00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:58,980
and I really love the work that you're

773
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:01,440
doing the conspiracy theories and meta

774
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:05,450
bank.com so I intend to you know develop

775
00:37:12,650 --> 00:37:09,090
the connection and and figure out ways

776
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:12,660
of how to help people to to reality test

777
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:15,510
and what I especially liked in your book

778
00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:18,330
is just saying that it's going to take

779
00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:21,630
time I don't expect a knockout punch in

780
00:37:26,810 --> 00:37:25,020
one conversation you know it just it

781
00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:26,820
doesn't work that way especially when

782
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:29,460
people are in an information silo where

783
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:31,800
they're constantly getting reinforcement

784
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:34,500
of the cultic beliefs the black and

785
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:37,010
white all or nothing good versus evil

786
00:37:42,190 --> 00:37:39,720
mentality it's going to take a lot of

787
00:37:43,259 --> 00:37:42,200
people to interact with that person

788
00:37:45,779 --> 00:37:43,269
asking

789
00:37:49,559 --> 00:37:45,789
questions in a respectful way help me

790
00:37:51,779 --> 00:37:49,569
understand it and and that's why over

791
00:37:54,659 --> 00:37:51,789
the decades I've evolved this approach

792
00:37:58,319 --> 00:37:54,669
where I work with family members friends

793
00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:58,329
ex members build a network who care

794
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:01,119
about the person so that it's all not

795
00:38:07,380 --> 00:38:05,049
just one person interacting with the

796
00:38:09,809 --> 00:38:07,390
cult member yeah and you know that

797
00:38:11,549 --> 00:38:09,819
giving time thing is why I when I asked

798
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:11,559
you how do you got much feedback about

799
00:38:14,759 --> 00:38:13,390
the book from people who who had just

800
00:38:16,559 --> 00:38:14,769
helped I didn't really expect he would

801
00:38:18,809 --> 00:38:16,569
have had very much because I I know that

802
00:38:20,399 --> 00:38:18,819
it does take time and you don't suddenly

803
00:38:21,809 --> 00:38:20,409
just you know have someone read a book

804
00:38:23,489 --> 00:38:21,819
or even have the family read a book and

805
00:38:26,339 --> 00:38:23,499
have them flip flop it's almost like

806
00:38:28,649 --> 00:38:26,349
you're you're just you're improving

807
00:38:30,959 --> 00:38:28,659
things about an overall level rather

808
00:38:32,519 --> 00:38:30,969
than just zipping in there changing

809
00:38:34,949 --> 00:38:32,529
someone's mind and zipping out again

810
00:38:38,459 --> 00:38:34,959
it's it's part of I think of a bigger

811
00:38:40,079 --> 00:38:38,469
picture you know a we're having people

812
00:38:42,089 --> 00:38:40,089
look at these issues as being aware of

813
00:38:44,489 --> 00:38:42,099
these issues and figuring out how to

814
00:38:47,959 --> 00:38:44,499
deal with them and getting these these

815
00:38:50,879 --> 00:38:47,969
these avenues of communication going

816
00:38:52,829 --> 00:38:50,889
yeah and letting people know that

817
00:38:57,599 --> 00:38:52,839
there's someone they can go to or a

818
00:39:00,179 --> 00:38:57,609
website when they're ready to read to

819
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:00,189
poke around yeah the information is out

820
00:39:03,509 --> 00:39:02,049
there a lot a lot of people are finding

821
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:03,519
conspiracy theories they don't even

822
00:39:08,609 --> 00:39:06,729
realize that there is information from

823
00:39:11,249 --> 00:39:08,619
the other side which is good information

824
00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:11,259
and it's something of a revelation when

825
00:39:16,169 --> 00:39:13,569
they actually get this source you know

826
00:39:17,249 --> 00:39:16,179
something like former believers I know

827
00:39:20,189 --> 00:39:17,259
this is something you have cults that

828
00:39:22,139 --> 00:39:20,199
they have this information control is

829
00:39:23,999 --> 00:39:22,149
big part of your your bite model how you

830
00:39:27,479 --> 00:39:24,009
define cults big Poppa's information

831
00:39:29,399 --> 00:39:27,489
control they stop you from hearing about

832
00:39:31,649 --> 00:39:29,409
people that used to be in the cults and

833
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:31,659
so it's important to get that across to

834
00:39:38,879 --> 00:39:36,249
people right and if you are so sure of

835
00:39:41,579 --> 00:39:38,889
your beliefs why wouldn't you talk to

836
00:39:44,999 --> 00:39:41,589
critics and former members and that is

837
00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:45,009
really what my father you know convinced

838
00:39:51,209 --> 00:39:47,529
me to do the deprogramming voluntarily

839
00:39:52,979 --> 00:39:51,219
he he he was like I just your mother and

840
00:39:54,839 --> 00:39:52,989
I just need to know you're not

841
00:39:57,220 --> 00:39:54,849
brainwashed and you're thinking for

842
00:39:59,650 --> 00:39:57,230
yourself and I said trust me I

843
00:40:02,680 --> 00:39:59,660
I know I'm not pretty I know that I'm

844
00:40:05,230 --> 00:40:02,690
not a Nicole and they said prove it just

845
00:40:08,109 --> 00:40:05,240
give us five days listen with an open

846
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:08,119
mind to these and they were ex Muniz

847
00:40:13,420 --> 00:40:11,359
three of out of the four and if you want

848
00:40:16,030 --> 00:40:13,430
to go back at the end of five days we'll

849
00:40:19,390 --> 00:40:16,040
drive you there you know myself my

850
00:40:21,790 --> 00:40:19,400
father said this and at least he said we

851
00:40:24,670 --> 00:40:21,800
could sleep at night knowing we did the

852
00:40:27,609 --> 00:40:24,680
responsible thing yeah and and he

853
00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:27,619
touched my heart and it was like I

854
00:40:32,349 --> 00:40:29,990
wanted to prove to him I wasn't pretty

855
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:32,359
washed and I wasn't under mind control

856
00:40:39,069 --> 00:40:35,680
and that was my mindset going into the

857
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:39,079
into the deprogramming where the ex

858
00:40:44,589 --> 00:40:43,040
members weren't mean nasty you know all

859
00:40:47,410 --> 00:40:44,599
the things I had been programmed to

860
00:40:50,770 --> 00:40:47,420
expect of ex members and I learned about

861
00:40:52,660 --> 00:40:50,780
Chinese communist brainwashing and and

862
00:40:55,359 --> 00:40:52,670
in the moon cult when I was in it was

863
00:40:58,510 --> 00:40:55,369
very anti-communist and so was Satan's

864
00:41:00,520 --> 00:40:58,520
army to take over the world for Satan so

865
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:00,530
I was very interested and open to

866
00:41:04,450 --> 00:41:01,930
Chinese communist brainwashing

867
00:41:06,339 --> 00:41:04,460
techniques so when they went through

868
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:06,349
Robert Lifton's thought reform in the

869
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:09,890
psychology of totalism I was interested

870
00:41:15,910 --> 00:41:12,800
and then each one as we went through it

871
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:15,920
by the time we did all eight I was

872
00:41:23,319 --> 00:41:20,510
thinking communism is Satan

873
00:41:26,589 --> 00:41:23,329
we're God but we'd do the same Aidan

874
00:41:29,770 --> 00:41:26,599
criteria I still wasn't able to make

875
00:41:32,980 --> 00:41:29,780
that next step in my minds but it was it

876
00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:32,990
started creating that dissonance this

877
00:41:40,059 --> 00:41:36,920
does not add up and the keys are under

878
00:41:42,099 --> 00:41:40,069
the key for you there wasn't so much so

879
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:42,109
the the information it was that the fact

880
00:41:45,970 --> 00:41:43,490
that you got the information into your

881
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:45,980
head which only happened because you had

882
00:41:49,599 --> 00:41:48,410
your family there who were able to

883
00:41:51,370 --> 00:41:49,609
persuade you to be a bit more

884
00:41:53,620 --> 00:41:51,380
open-minded and actually consider that

885
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:53,630
information and I think like a real key

886
00:41:58,930 --> 00:41:57,290
that you talk about is having good

887
00:42:01,870 --> 00:41:58,940
relationships with people that you're

888
00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:01,880
trying to help and something that kind

889
00:42:07,660 --> 00:42:05,030
of I found a bit disturbing on social

890
00:42:10,340 --> 00:42:07,670
media is the trend of unfriending people

891
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:10,350
who that you just say you disagree with

892
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:12,390
someone post something that's pro-trump

893
00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:14,610
say people will say oh and another

894
00:42:18,470 --> 00:42:16,260
friend called from my friend list

895
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:18,480
because they you know they have a photo

896
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,130
of himself in a maggot or whatever

897
00:42:26,690 --> 00:42:22,800
whatever is yes no that that is the

898
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:26,700
that's what cults want is for family

899
00:42:31,580 --> 00:42:29,400
members and friends to get angry and fed

900
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:31,590
up and cut off contact because that

901
00:42:37,790 --> 00:42:34,710
leaves the person completely under their

902
00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:37,800
influence and control and that's why

903
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:40,440
again another point where I agree with

904
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:42,720
with your approach is just saying look

905
00:42:47,540 --> 00:42:44,850
we know I'm your brother or I'm your

906
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:47,550
best friend from childhood I'm gonna

907
00:42:53,180 --> 00:42:50,640
always be your friend and and we may

908
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:53,190
disagree right now but the important

909
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:55,440
thing is that I value you and we've had

910
00:42:59,870 --> 00:42:57,720
all these incredible life experiences

911
00:43:02,840 --> 00:42:59,880
together okay and if it's a family

912
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:02,850
member I love you and no matter what I

913
00:43:08,420 --> 00:43:06,510
love you and let's stay in touch ya know

914
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:08,430
people do even because our family

915
00:43:13,730 --> 00:43:10,710
members but so they also cut off people

916
00:43:15,650 --> 00:43:13,740
who are just like friends or even just

917
00:43:17,930 --> 00:43:15,660
like casual acquaintances that they know

918
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,940
and they call a friend list and I think

919
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:19,200
for some people it's kind of a

920
00:43:22,910 --> 00:43:20,640
self-preservation thing because they

921
00:43:26,060 --> 00:43:22,920
just get so upset with all of this and

922
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:26,070
what this is so am i coming back to

923
00:43:32,660 --> 00:43:29,520
again am i approach in your approach the

924
00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:32,670
you can that say you know what let's put

925
00:43:38,810 --> 00:43:36,030
our disagreements on a shelf and let's

926
00:43:42,490 --> 00:43:38,820
just like talk about things we both

927
00:43:46,190 --> 00:43:42,500
agree on if you're dog lover a cat lover

928
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:46,200
sports fan or something else let's let's

929
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:49,170
leave the controversial stuff and let's

930
00:43:56,090 --> 00:43:52,650
just be in each other's lives and is an

931
00:43:59,780 --> 00:43:56,100
intermediary step and you you described

932
00:44:02,930 --> 00:43:59,790
as having regular positive contact in in

933
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:02,940
in you know in the cult of Trump which

934
00:44:06,110 --> 00:44:04,530
you know just have the chapter nine is

935
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:06,120
very kind of practical chapter when you

936
00:44:11,180 --> 00:44:08,130
go through the various stages where

937
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:11,190
people can help other people and you're

938
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:12,810
talking about having good relationships

939
00:44:19,790 --> 00:44:16,650
and building rapport and Trust which is

940
00:44:21,290 --> 00:44:19,800
a very important thing anyways it's an

941
00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:21,300
interesting thing they're like you'd

942
00:44:26,940 --> 00:44:23,740
you're trying to build rapport and Trust

943
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:26,950
but in a way that becomes suspicious to

944
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:28,570
people because they think you're trying

945
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:32,050
to use psychology against them how do

946
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:35,040
you how do you maintain a genuine

947
00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:37,450
rapport and Trust with people and stop

948
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:39,100
them being suspicious of your your

949
00:44:46,740 --> 00:44:44,350
overtures towards them I think you need

950
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:46,750
to be honest with yourself and I think

951
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:48,730
you need to be honest with the other

952
00:44:54,990 --> 00:44:52,510
person and if they call me on I think

953
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:55,000
you're just doing this as a method and

954
00:45:01,710 --> 00:44:57,040
you don't really care about me or

955
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:01,720
whatever if I don't really care what am

956
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:06,010
I doing this for yeah and and unlike you

957
00:45:12,570 --> 00:45:09,490
I in your story you you made your money

958
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:12,580
and you're doing this as a good deed you

959
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:15,280
call it a hobby but it's really in my

960
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:17,710
mind the service of the planet to help

961
00:45:24,810 --> 00:45:20,770
other people in my case I do make a

962
00:45:29,180 --> 00:45:24,820
living being hired by people but I'd say

963
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:29,190
80% of my work week is pro bono and

964
00:45:34,350 --> 00:45:32,290
stuff to help people who can't afford it

965
00:45:39,570 --> 00:45:34,360
or putting out information to try to

966
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:39,580
help others but the bottom line is not

967
00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:41,890
lying because then you're doing what the

968
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:45,550
cult is doing and probably the most

969
00:45:49,950 --> 00:45:48,250
honest thing I might say to someone if

970
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:49,960
they're calling me on that particular

971
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:53,170
point is you know there's two parts of

972
00:46:00,450 --> 00:45:56,650
me part of me is genuinely wanting to

973
00:46:03,860 --> 00:46:00,460
care about you know you share with you

974
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:03,870
and and and assist and part of me is

975
00:46:11,910 --> 00:46:07,510
wanting to understand more about this

976
00:46:13,980 --> 00:46:11,920
group and and I do you know I am worried

977
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:13,990
about you and I do feel like this

978
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:16,810
there's a detrimental side to this that

979
00:46:22,650 --> 00:46:20,310
you're not considering yeah yeah

980
00:46:24,750 --> 00:46:22,660
something something else you mentioned

981
00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:24,760
in that chapter is quite a large section

982
00:46:28,770 --> 00:46:27,400
on helping them undo their phobias and

983
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:28,780
this is something you mentioned earlier

984
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:32,800
like the cults will instill phobias and

985
00:46:37,050 --> 00:46:36,220
fears within people and you know with

986
00:46:39,390 --> 00:46:37,060
with Trump

987
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:39,400
you have like fear of a unchecked

988
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:42,970
immigration and things like that or fear

989
00:46:48,330 --> 00:46:45,570
of the Democrats taking away your guns

990
00:46:49,530 --> 00:46:48,340
it's something with conspiracy theories

991
00:46:52,860 --> 00:46:49,540
I hadn't really thought about that much

992
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:52,870
for them I something I think about with

993
00:46:58,830 --> 00:46:54,130
some of the conspiracy theories there's

994
00:47:00,990 --> 00:46:58,840
a book called purity in danger by Mary

995
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:01,000
Douglas she's kind of a classic kind of

996
00:47:07,260 --> 00:47:04,410
anthropology book and it's talking about

997
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:07,270
how there's a subconscious fear of

998
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:10,210
disease and being infected by things

999
00:47:13,650 --> 00:47:12,250
that can have underlies a lot of

1000
00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:13,660
people's thoughts they want to be clear

1001
00:47:17,820 --> 00:47:15,310
there's these ritual hand-washing and

1002
00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:17,830
things mmm do you think that sounds like

1003
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:19,840
something that we learned in childhood

1004
00:47:26,670 --> 00:47:23,110
Mick yeah from parents of washing our

1005
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:26,680
hands before we eat but in you know the

1006
00:47:34,290 --> 00:47:31,450
fear is a major protector of how humans

1007
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:34,300
evolved to be so successful as a species

1008
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:36,690
because if something is truly dangerous

1009
00:47:41,940 --> 00:47:39,970
we want to avoid it but where are we

1010
00:47:44,250 --> 00:47:41,950
talking about phobias we're talking

1011
00:47:46,740 --> 00:47:44,260
about things that are our brain is

1012
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:46,750
reacting as if there's danger when

1013
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:50,290
there's fact no danger and the only way

1014
00:47:57,630 --> 00:47:53,410
to evaluate is using our analytic

1015
00:48:00,450 --> 00:47:57,640
critical mind you know so for example if

1016
00:48:03,420 --> 00:48:00,460
a person has a phobia of dogs and they

1017
00:48:06,420 --> 00:48:03,430
are shown a book with pictures of dogs

1018
00:48:09,210 --> 00:48:06,430
and their heart starts racing and

1019
00:48:14,190 --> 00:48:09,220
they're start you know having an anxiety

1020
00:48:17,010 --> 00:48:14,200
attack I say you know there's no danger

1021
00:48:20,430 --> 00:48:17,020
in looking at a picture of a dog let's

1022
00:48:24,270 --> 00:48:20,440
learn techniques for how to get rid of

1023
00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:24,280
that trigger that Association and use

1024
00:48:29,550 --> 00:48:26,740
your critical thinking to know the

1025
00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:29,560
difference between a rabid dog you know

1026
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:32,380
it's a Doberman Pinscher you know or a

1027
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:35,290
pitbull versus a little puppy versus a

1028
00:48:42,020 --> 00:48:39,490
picture yeah I found a three step phobia

1029
00:48:45,060 --> 00:48:42,030
intervention in my book freedom of mind

1030
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:45,070
because once you understand the

1031
00:48:49,180 --> 00:48:47,770
difference between a legitimate fear and

1032
00:48:53,260 --> 00:48:49,190
a phobia and out of

1033
00:48:55,630 --> 00:48:53,270
six array normal phobia the next step is

1034
00:48:58,420 --> 00:48:55,640
teaching people about how other groups

1035
00:49:01,270 --> 00:48:58,430
put phobias in people's minds to control

1036
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:01,280
them and getting them to agree yup

1037
00:49:08,079 --> 00:49:05,359
that's really obviously bad you know

1038
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:08,089
that that's a bad use of phobias and

1039
00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:11,810
then the question of if you decide you

1040
00:49:16,809 --> 00:49:14,750
want to exit your group or your belief

1041
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:16,819
system what do you think is going to

1042
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:21,170
happen and waiting and and being quiet

1043
00:49:27,550 --> 00:49:24,530
while the person thinks about it they

1044
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:27,560
you know if they are in a program state

1045
00:49:32,589 --> 00:49:29,569
of mind they're only be gonna be able to

1046
00:49:35,589 --> 00:49:32,599
generate negative scenarios of being

1047
00:49:38,859 --> 00:49:35,599
taken over by evil people or being in

1048
00:49:42,010 --> 00:49:38,869
hell or evil spirits invading them or

1049
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:42,020
aliens you know taking over the earth or

1050
00:49:48,670 --> 00:49:45,530
whatever and teaching them how to how to

1051
00:49:50,260 --> 00:49:48,680
meet ex-members who've left and they're

1052
00:49:52,750 --> 00:49:50,270
don't have these anymore

1053
00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:52,760
and it's interesting like that brings to

1054
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:54,609
mind kind of we're talking about

1055
00:50:01,000 --> 00:49:58,160
symmetries in perceptions here with with

1056
00:50:03,819 --> 00:50:01,010
that there's this kind of a thing from

1057
00:50:06,099 --> 00:50:03,829
the Trump supporter side where they they

1058
00:50:07,870 --> 00:50:06,109
say that you know you're you're a

1059
00:50:11,859 --> 00:50:07,880
brainwashed Democrat or whatever and

1060
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:11,869
then they have a movement which is you

1061
00:50:17,020 --> 00:50:12,890
know kind of thing might be a bit of an

1062
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:17,030
astroturf movement which is the Camrys

1063
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:19,730
call now it's like the leaving or

1064
00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:21,530
stepping away or something about it's a

1065
00:50:27,609 --> 00:50:23,900
movement where people move away from the

1066
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:27,619
Democratic Party and they because they

1067
00:50:33,970 --> 00:50:31,010
think the Democrats are you have become

1068
00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:33,980
corrupt over time and this is something

1069
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,260
that's promoted by both parties are

1070
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:38,720
corrupt yes

1071
00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:41,450
I wrote in the cult of Trump about a

1072
00:50:46,059 --> 00:50:43,550
cult called the family that's been

1073
00:50:48,010 --> 00:50:46,069
operating in Washington for 18 years

1074
00:50:50,589 --> 00:50:48,020
they do the National Prayer Breakfast

1075
00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:50,599
and they have Democrats and Republicans

1076
00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:53,630
and atheists and libertarians in the

1077
00:50:59,140 --> 00:50:56,480
family and the rank of people watch the

1078
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:59,150
Netflix series the family if I wasn't I

1079
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:00,800
watched it it's very interesting it's

1080
00:51:05,260 --> 00:51:02,690
kind of an eye opener as well that the

1081
00:51:08,020 --> 00:51:05,270
of influencers less religious groups and

1082
00:51:10,540 --> 00:51:08,030
this this just the prayer breakfast has

1083
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:10,550
on Washington is quite quite astonishing

1084
00:51:18,580 --> 00:51:12,650
really yeah

1085
00:51:22,810 --> 00:51:18,590
so I really want to blow the smoke away

1086
00:51:25,180 --> 00:51:22,820
from the idea that's been promulgated

1087
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:25,190
there's no such thing as mind control or

1088
00:51:30,010 --> 00:51:28,130
everything is mind control right and I

1089
00:51:32,010 --> 00:51:30,020
want people to understand there's

1090
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:32,020
ethical influence and unethical

1091
00:51:36,910 --> 00:51:34,730
influence and that ultimately if you're

1092
00:51:39,460 --> 00:51:36,920
an adult you should be in control of

1093
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:39,470
your own mind your own thoughts your own

1094
00:51:45,010 --> 00:51:43,070
choices and you need information to make

1095
00:51:48,010 --> 00:51:45,020
good decisions and if you're only

1096
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:48,020
getting information from one new source

1097
00:51:54,370 --> 00:51:51,440
one Facebook page or a collection where

1098
00:51:56,770 --> 00:51:54,380
they're all mirroring the same beliefs

1099
00:52:00,250 --> 00:51:56,780
and those beliefs are black and white

1100
00:52:02,830 --> 00:52:00,260
all or nothing good versus evil and put

1101
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:02,840
down everyone else scoops just knocked

1102
00:52:07,780 --> 00:52:06,050
over tripod and and demonizes everyone

1103
00:52:10,930 --> 00:52:07,790
else that doesn't believe what they

1104
00:52:17,730 --> 00:52:13,420
you know anybody of any group you

1105
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:17,740
because reality is more complex and

1106
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:20,570
there and we don't know everything and

1107
00:52:26,020 --> 00:52:23,930
we should have humility and say look if

1108
00:52:29,050 --> 00:52:26,030
something's legitimate I'll stand up to

1109
00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:29,060
scrutiny let's see your facts show you

1110
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:31,820
my facts yeah now is that they saw a

1111
00:52:36,460 --> 00:52:33,890
dialogue that's going to be the thing

1112
00:52:37,990 --> 00:52:36,470
that's the key we're coming up on an

1113
00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:38,000
hour I just wanted to like I asked I

1114
00:52:41,860 --> 00:52:39,830
often ask on Twitter like when I've got

1115
00:52:43,330 --> 00:52:41,870
an interesting guest on like what what

1116
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:43,340
should I ask this guest and I find these

1117
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:44,570
questions kind of interesting because

1118
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:46,910
they tell you something about about the

1119
00:52:50,830 --> 00:52:49,370
audience and you know maybe we can to go

1120
00:52:54,330 --> 00:52:50,840
for a couple of them if you if you

1121
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:54,340
shared a couple of minutes one of the

1122
00:52:59,860 --> 00:52:57,040
questions I found very interesting was

1123
00:53:02,650 --> 00:52:59,870
it's taking a hard stance towards such

1124
00:53:04,270 --> 00:53:02,660
such cases in your family by showing

1125
00:53:07,060 --> 00:53:04,280
them your deep disappointment and

1126
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:07,070
disapproval a viable option or does it

1127
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:09,410
just lead to alienation do we sometimes

1128
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:11,930
have to shut the door in discussions to

1129
00:53:22,570 --> 00:53:19,470
every every case is different and

1130
00:53:24,910 --> 00:53:22,580
usually when people get to me they've

1131
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:24,920
already made all the classic mistakes

1132
00:53:31,690 --> 00:53:29,450
for months or years of yelling screaming

1133
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:31,700
trying to argue the person out of the

1134
00:53:40,750 --> 00:53:35,930
belief system and such so again I I

1135
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:40,760
recommend a like let's start over I care

1136
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:41,810
about you

1137
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:45,650
you know let's remember let's go back to

1138
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:48,350
our childhood together or you know

1139
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:52,880
positive of memories etc and your

1140
00:53:58,290 --> 00:53:55,010
important person to me and you're

1141
00:54:00,550 --> 00:53:58,300
intelligent and I respect you and

1142
00:54:04,210 --> 00:54:00,560
honestly some of the things you've

1143
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:04,220
shared just doesn't sound like you and

1144
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:06,770
it's not anything that I you know can

1145
00:54:13,870 --> 00:54:11,210
relate to but maybe you're right what

1146
00:54:16,210 --> 00:54:13,880
you were saying in here maybe there's

1147
00:54:19,660 --> 00:54:16,220
maybe I'm missing something or maybe I

1148
00:54:24,370 --> 00:54:19,670
have been brainwashed and such so let I

1149
00:54:27,790 --> 00:54:24,380
ain't but the point is is not lying

1150
00:54:30,490 --> 00:54:27,800
but being forthright and open and kind

1151
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:30,500
of modeling for the person that it's

1152
00:54:35,350 --> 00:54:33,650
okay to question and and concede points

1153
00:54:36,940 --> 00:54:35,360
if they give if if they teach you

1154
00:54:40,630 --> 00:54:36,950
something new that you didn't know to

1155
00:54:43,060 --> 00:54:40,640
say huh I hadn't thought about that one

1156
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:43,070
friend of mine who is like the New York

1157
00:54:48,070 --> 00:54:45,890
Times I'm canceling my subscription I

1158
00:54:49,930 --> 00:54:48,080
don't think it has anything to do and

1159
00:54:51,310 --> 00:54:49,940
I'm like well what do you read well I

1160
00:54:54,130 --> 00:54:51,320
watch I'm reading The Wall Street

1161
00:54:56,620 --> 00:54:54,140
Journal so I subscribe to The Wall

1162
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,630
Street Journal you know I still read the

1163
00:55:00,700 --> 00:54:58,640
New York Times but I subscribe to The

1164
00:55:03,070 --> 00:55:00,710
Wall Street Journal and I will share

1165
00:55:04,930 --> 00:55:03,080
Wall Street Journal articles with my

1166
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:04,940
friends let's just say what do you think

1167
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:06,410
of this or what do you think of that

1168
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:09,290
yeah yeah so I guess like you're you're

1169
00:55:14,770 --> 00:55:11,210
kind of a half a yes in a way because

1170
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:14,780
you you do encourage kind of rebooting

1171
00:55:21,580 --> 00:55:18,050
the conversation but I think I would say

1172
00:55:23,350 --> 00:55:21,590
by shutting it down by by showing your

1173
00:55:25,030 --> 00:55:23,360
deeps appointment and disapproval isn't

1174
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:25,040
really a viable way of doing it you can

1175
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:26,890
do it more with love than with

1176
00:55:30,670 --> 00:55:28,250
disapproval

1177
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:30,680
no and I I encourage family members and

1178
00:55:36,310 --> 00:55:33,110
friends to apologize if the person felt

1179
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:36,320
insulted or put down by you by something

1180
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:39,410
you said and another technique that I've

1181
00:55:45,630 --> 00:55:42,170
shared with my clients that I think you

1182
00:55:49,630 --> 00:55:45,640
know is is genuine is kind of a

1183
00:55:50,830 --> 00:55:49,640
bifurcated response like part of me you

1184
00:56:00,910 --> 00:55:50,840
know

1185
00:56:03,430 --> 00:56:00,920
come any moment

1186
00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:03,440
and Jesus is gonna you know come on the

1187
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:05,630
clouds and part of me has real doubts

1188
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:09,530
about that and isn't sure if if this is

1189
00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:12,410
actually rooted in the Bible and such so

1190
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:16,240
you're doing you're doing a dual

1191
00:56:23,110 --> 00:56:19,010
communication both to the authentic self

1192
00:56:25,450 --> 00:56:23,120
and the cult self and you and you're not

1193
00:56:28,300 --> 00:56:25,460
dialing yourself out by trying to put

1194
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:28,310
yourself I'm right you're wrong you know

1195
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:30,650
or do anything like that but try to find

1196
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:32,510
a common ground yeah you have a

1197
00:56:36,910 --> 00:56:34,130
discussion where you can actually reach

1198
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:36,920
some kind of agreement another question

1199
00:56:43,510 --> 00:56:40,010
from from Twitter it's as an interesting

1200
00:56:45,970 --> 00:56:43,520
question is where does victimhood end

1201
00:56:49,540 --> 00:56:45,980
and personal responsibility begin in

1202
00:56:51,790 --> 00:56:49,550
terms of vulnerability to cults which is

1203
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:51,800
kind of a loaded question in a way but

1204
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:55,370
it's kind of interesting perspective

1205
00:57:00,580 --> 00:56:57,530
that people will think about personal

1206
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:00,590
responsibility is your fault yeah a lot

1207
00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:03,610
of mind-control cults actually

1208
00:57:08,830 --> 00:57:06,110
indoctrinate their followers some of

1209
00:57:12,010 --> 00:57:08,840
them hypnotically that there's no such

1210
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:12,020
thing as a victim and that if you were

1211
00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:12,650
raped

1212
00:57:18,430 --> 00:57:15,340
when you were five years old you

1213
00:57:21,130 --> 00:57:18,440
actually created that experience for

1214
00:57:25,450 --> 00:57:21,140
yourself because your soul needed to

1215
00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:25,460
learn something valuable and so there

1216
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:27,980
there's there's this programming against

1217
00:57:37,180 --> 00:57:33,440
the idea of a victim and so what I my

1218
00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:37,190
take is that people can be victimized

1219
00:57:41,740 --> 00:57:41,180
whether mugged or raped or some terrible

1220
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:41,750
thing

1221
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:44,330
happens to them but that's different

1222
00:57:50,860 --> 00:57:46,970
than like wearing it for the rest of

1223
00:57:52,810 --> 00:57:50,870
your life as an identity like that is

1224
00:57:54,610 --> 00:57:52,820
something I've been accused of like

1225
00:57:56,980 --> 00:57:54,620
Steve you're in the Moonies for two and

1226
00:57:58,030 --> 00:57:56,990
a half years why do you keep talking

1227
00:58:01,420 --> 00:57:58,040
about it

1228
00:58:04,780 --> 00:58:01,430
well other than in my work I don't think

1229
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:04,790
about it yeah it's not it's not part of

1230
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:08,360
who I am in 2020 I'm in a doctoral

1231
00:58:15,790 --> 00:58:12,650
program I'm teaching I'm consulting I'm

1232
00:58:18,910 --> 00:58:15,800
helping people but I used my personal

1233
00:58:21,580 --> 00:58:18,920
experience to say hey it happened to me

1234
00:58:23,830 --> 00:58:21,590
and I'm a good person from a solid home

1235
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:23,840
I was an extra honor student

1236
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:25,850
you know how they got me to throw out

1237
00:58:32,110 --> 00:58:29,210
all my poetry as a demonstration of my

1238
00:58:35,230 --> 00:58:32,120
faith I was prepared to die or kill on

1239
00:58:38,140 --> 00:58:35,240
command when I was in the cult and when

1240
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:38,150
I woke up I was horrified that I helped

1241
00:58:44,820 --> 00:58:40,640
this cult recruit so many people in it

1242
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:44,830
and I wanted to right the wrong yeah

1243
00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:48,890
yeah one last question from the Twitter

1244
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:53,750
sphere is it's not so much a question

1245
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:55,730
there's more of the commentary which is

1246
00:58:59,740 --> 00:58:57,650
ask him about the irony of being a

1247
00:59:01,990 --> 00:58:59,750
conspiracy theorist who evangelizes his

1248
00:59:03,730 --> 00:59:02,000
own constructed conspiracy theories with

1249
00:59:05,950 --> 00:59:03,740
the fervor of a recently converted

1250
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:05,960
zealot and with the following of a cult

1251
00:59:10,330 --> 00:59:07,490
leader and I think they're talking about

1252
00:59:13,210 --> 00:59:10,340
you here so Steve some people have the

1253
00:59:15,100 --> 00:59:13,220
perspective of you of almost being a

1254
00:59:21,100 --> 00:59:15,110
cult leader how would you respond to

1255
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:21,110
that when I left in 1976 and went on TV

1256
00:59:26,260 --> 00:59:23,210
for the first time saying that the

1257
00:59:30,340 --> 00:59:26,270
Moonies were a cult I was accused of

1258
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:30,350
being in a the negative Messiah by moon

1259
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:31,250
himself

1260
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:33,920
I was mold laid for him and that I was

1261
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:37,760
leading the cult of the anti cult so

1262
00:59:45,580 --> 00:59:42,410
this goes back many many years and you

1263
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:45,590
know again for me the model on the

1264
00:59:51,790 --> 00:59:49,850
influencer continuum is I may have but

1265
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:51,800
the people who've been helped by my work

1266
00:59:57,660 --> 00:59:52,570
who

1267
01:00:00,420 --> 00:59:57,670
people but I in no way in telling them

1268
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:00,430
in controlling them making using fear

1269
01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:03,490
and guilt and extracting money and

1270
01:00:12,810 --> 01:00:07,420
demanding time from them versus the

1271
01:00:15,420 --> 01:00:12,820
mission I want to I'm gonna be very

1272
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:15,430
controversial now and I know it's the

1273
01:00:21,570 --> 01:00:18,610
end of our of our session drum roll but

1274
01:00:24,270 --> 01:00:21,580
one of my teachers for over 30 years is

1275
01:00:27,060 --> 01:00:24,280
a forensic psychologist he was one of

1276
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:27,070
the lead experts for the victims of the

1277
01:00:33,660 --> 01:00:30,400
Catholic Church sex abuse okay and he

1278
01:00:39,620 --> 01:00:33,670
ends name is Daniel Brown and he worked

1279
01:00:43,380 --> 01:00:39,630
with sirhan sirhan over 12 years and and

1280
01:00:46,830 --> 01:00:43,390
so I've been hearing about this for 12

1281
01:00:49,950 --> 01:00:46,840
years from him and there's overwhelming

1282
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:49,960
evidence that he didn't kill Robert

1283
01:00:55,950 --> 01:00:53,280
Kennedy like overwhelming factual

1284
01:00:58,830 --> 01:00:55,960
forensic evidence even the man who he

1285
01:01:01,530 --> 01:00:58,840
actually shot testified at CERN Ian's

1286
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:01,540
Parole Board hearing he shot me but he

1287
01:01:09,900 --> 01:01:04,810
didn't kill RFK and the bullet came from

1288
01:01:13,140 --> 01:01:09,910
behind that killed RFK so was there a

1289
01:01:18,290 --> 01:01:13,150
conspiracy actually my mentor says he

1290
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:18,300
was hypnotized and brainwashed MKULTRA

1291
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:23,280
to be a distractor right for RF Kay's

1292
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:26,050
assassination interesting and there's a

1293
01:01:31,860 --> 01:01:28,240
there's a documentary film that's on

1294
01:01:36,470 --> 01:01:31,870
YouTube where he does a long interview

1295
01:01:41,250 --> 01:01:36,480
about this so MKULTRA was real

1296
01:01:44,190 --> 01:01:41,260
the CIA has used groups like mine to do

1297
01:01:46,620 --> 01:01:44,200
their bidding in in in America and in

1298
01:01:49,350 --> 01:01:46,630
other places I actually fasted for

1299
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:49,360
Richard Nixon during Watergate because

1300
01:01:57,030 --> 01:01:53,110
God wanted Nixon to be President as a

1301
01:01:59,760 --> 01:01:57,040
moonie and some young moon actually went

1302
01:02:04,560 --> 01:01:59,770
to meet Nixon after a family prayer

1303
01:02:06,270 --> 01:02:04,570
breakfast in 74 I believe it was so the

1304
01:02:11,910 --> 01:02:06,280
the the this is a

1305
01:02:14,670 --> 01:02:11,920
Spira see but we have facts or this so

1306
01:02:17,300 --> 01:02:14,680
the whole state thing it's not a black

1307
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:17,310
and white all or nothing there are

1308
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:20,530
people involved with the spy world that

1309
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:23,410
are have done some very bad things and

1310
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:24,490
they don't want to be held accountable

1311
01:02:31,020 --> 01:02:27,370
and they should be held accountable it's

1312
01:02:33,210 --> 01:02:31,030
fascinating stuff like yes it's where do

1313
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:33,220
where does where does the truth which is

1314
01:02:37,620 --> 01:02:35,200
the truth beginning conspiracy theory so

1315
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:37,630
it was a very kind of murky subject

1316
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:40,450
because you don't have this is access to

1317
01:02:44,460 --> 01:02:42,370
easily by verify all information that

1318
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:44,470
you're talking about something like that

1319
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:47,290
a friend of yours told you and it's hard

1320
01:02:51,780 --> 01:02:50,410
for me to then go in and verify that and

1321
01:02:54,060 --> 01:02:51,790
you get the similar types of things in

1322
01:02:56,670 --> 01:02:54,070
other theories but there but I'm saying

1323
01:03:00,000 --> 01:02:56,680
Nick as you've done such an incredible

1324
01:03:02,790 --> 01:03:00,010
job with chemtrails and contrails like

1325
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:02,800
there really is a lot of work that has

1326
01:03:09,810 --> 01:03:06,910
factual basis to this and but III

1327
01:03:12,900 --> 01:03:09,820
brought this up at the end just just for

1328
01:03:17,310 --> 01:03:12,910
any of your listeners to understand I'm

1329
01:03:20,250 --> 01:03:17,320
not like all or nothing or the Democrats

1330
01:03:25,230 --> 01:03:20,260
are perfect or you know the CIA is great

1331
01:03:27,870 --> 01:03:25,240
or whatever you know but my frame is we

1332
01:03:31,100 --> 01:03:27,880
know a lot about how to manipulate and

1333
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:31,110
indoctrinate and program people into

1334
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:34,050
mind-control cults and there's

1335
01:03:40,890 --> 01:03:36,730
methodology that has work to help people

1336
01:03:44,190 --> 01:03:40,900
wake up and exit them but it is going to

1337
01:03:47,820 --> 01:03:44,200
take a lot of you know consciousness

1338
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:47,830
raising that this this this technology

1339
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:52,510
exists this actually exists fascinating

1340
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:54,010
stuff and I want to thank you very much

1341
01:03:57,630 --> 01:03:56,170
for for sharing all that with me and

1342
01:03:59,160 --> 01:03:57,640
being on the show and thank you for your

1343
01:04:02,780 --> 01:03:59,170
books thank you for sending me this book

1344
01:04:08,180 --> 01:04:02,790
the cult of Trump it's very interesting

1345
01:04:10,110 --> 01:04:08,190
you're the cult of Trump you know it's

1346
01:04:12,780 --> 01:04:10,120
it's obviously not something that's

1347
01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:12,790
going to appeal on its face to everybody

1348
01:04:17,340 --> 01:04:15,100
but it is really kind of a a book I

1349
01:04:20,370 --> 01:04:17,350
think that would be of interest to

1350
01:04:23,370 --> 01:04:20,380
anybody and even if even if you're

1351
01:04:25,499 --> 01:04:23,380
deeply on the other side it's is good to

1352
01:04:28,099 --> 01:04:25,509
know what the other side is actually

1353
01:04:31,609 --> 01:04:28,109
talking about so that you can honestly

1354
01:04:34,769 --> 01:04:31,619
refute their arguments rather than just

1355
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:34,779
demonizing them so yeah it's a very

1356
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:36,930
interesting book as your other books

1357
01:04:40,650 --> 01:04:38,710
especially like combating cult

1358
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:40,660
mind-control classic which inspired my

1359
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:43,930
my own work and where can people find

1360
01:04:49,410 --> 01:04:45,450
you on the Internet

1361
01:04:49,890 --> 01:04:49,420
freedom of mind calm is my website and

1362
01:04:53,999 --> 01:04:49,900
Twitter

1363
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:54,009
I'm cult expert as on Instagram on cult

1364
01:05:00,029 --> 01:04:58,210
expert and I have a YouTube channel you

1365
01:05:03,660 --> 01:05:00,039
can look up freedom of Mind Resource

1366
01:05:06,089 --> 01:05:03,670
Center which is my company name I have I

1367
01:05:10,109 --> 01:05:06,099
don't know 200 free videos so that

1368
01:05:14,309 --> 01:05:10,119
people can look at okay any any closing

1369
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:14,319
thoughts I'd like to talk more with you

1370
01:05:20,789 --> 01:05:16,450
actually if you're open to doing an

1371
01:05:27,210 --> 01:05:20,799
interview I'd like to talk about you

1372
01:05:29,789 --> 01:05:27,220
know kovat conspiracies and you know

1373
01:05:32,370 --> 01:05:29,799
just what what the future could look

1374
01:05:34,559 --> 01:05:32,380
like and yet it you know and how to

1375
01:05:37,289 --> 01:05:34,569
empower more people to reach out to

1376
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:37,299
their friends and family that have gone

1377
01:05:42,359 --> 01:05:40,089
down the rabbit hole whether it's a just

1378
01:05:44,849 --> 01:05:42,369
a conspiracy theory or a full-fledged

1379
01:05:49,380 --> 01:05:44,859
cult organization that they were

1380
01:05:51,660 --> 01:05:49,390
recruited into online yeah so if you're

1381
01:05:55,650 --> 01:05:51,670
open to it maybe we can do another and

1382
01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:55,660
I'll write a blog and introduce my folks

1383
01:05:59,940 --> 01:05:57,490
know and I would love that I would be

1384
01:06:00,960 --> 01:05:59,950
great yeah it's so more more the merrier

1385
01:06:03,359 --> 01:06:00,970
the more the better

1386
01:06:05,309 --> 01:06:03,369
great all right thank you thank you

1387
01:06:07,140 --> 01:06:05,319
thank you very much have a great day

1388
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:07,150
when you're gonna use it right